Past GPU releases: fillrate is king and your drivers are cheating

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Mental Gear Reduction

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  • #161
    grommit! said:
    Anyhow, thanks for demonstrating once again that putting you on ignore was the best decision I've made here.
    Click to expand...
    It's funny, now that his pet hobbyhorse Intel is failing so badly that even he can't defend it, that he's switched to championing NVidia instead. Anything to satisfy his AMD hate. He's so desperate to insist that AMD sucks that now he's gone heavy on graphic cards, since they're winning comprehensively on the CPU front.

    And I have him on ignore too, but the dumb stuff he says to feed his irrational AMD hatred still manages to leak through a little, like it did here.

    I realized that he was worthless to talk to when he was willing to quote arguments from sources he explicitly didn't trust. Anything to "win" and say AMD is bad.
     
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  • #162
    I'm not sure how much longer it will still work, but the utility NVCleanstall will do a very nice minimum install of the NVidia drivers. There's one present gotcha that they may or may not be able to fix: during the initial download, when you choose what components to install, you must include the new NVApp thing, or it won't work. Then, after it downloads and builds the custom installer package, you run the actual install program and deselect the app, leaving just what you want. It's a weird workaround, but it does function.

    I've been using NVCleanstall for quite awhile to install just the driver, PhysX, and HDMI audio, leaving all the other garbage behind. That includes the old NVidia control panel automatically. It tracks whether you're on Studio or Game Ready drivers, and optionally pops up a notification when new versions come out, apparently without touching the NVidia servers.
     
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  • #163
    Mental Gear Reduction said:
    But if the problem goes away shortly, it won't really matter. This is only a problem if the bug sticks around.

    You're flipping out and getting super upset about an issue that will probably exist only for a couple of weeks. And in the interim, it's easily worked around.
    Click to expand...
    It's not just about this particular issue. From BigLan's comment that kicked this all off:
    So, can we harp on about shoddy Nvidia drivers for years now
    Click to expand...
    In other words, this is about the future. One where nvidia stuffs more "value add" into their bloatware, and thus increases the chances of another bug. Just like AMD.

    And here's another prediction - when that happens, our resident green cheerleader will make excuses for them, blame the end user and accuse them of being on team red.
    Mental Gear Reduction said:
    Did NVidia piss in your cheerios or something? Why is this such a catastrophe?
    Click to expand...
    I'm tired
    • Tired of dark-mode only apps.
    • Tired of bloated apps that are really browsers in disguise (prediction: nvidia will start displaying ads at some point)
    • Tired of having to dig-up random third-party tools and hoping they aren't subject to a supply-chain attack**
    • Tired of people thinking their favorite corporation can do no wrong
    ** there are already forks of nvprofileinspector as it hasn't been updated in over 18 months.
     
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  • #164
    grommit! said:
    Tired of people thinking their favorite corporation can do no wrong
    Click to expand...
    But a big chunk of the 'wrong' you claim they're doing is things you imagine they might do, someday. The stuff they've actually done hasn't been especially egregious, except for maybe their snoopy Experience app, but I haven't used that in years.

    Instead of getting uptight about hypotheticals, maybe wait until they actually happen before blaming them?

    And I don't think anyone sane believes that NVidia is without fault. Maybe our anti-AMD troll, but like I said, nobody sane.
     
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  • #165
    Mental Gear Reduction said:
    But a big chunk of the 'wrong' you claim they're doing is things you imagine they might do, someday. The stuff they've actually done hasn't been especially egregious, except for maybe their snoopy Experience app, but I haven't used that in years.
    Click to expand...
    Those who cannot remember the past etc etc.
    Instead of getting uptight about hypotheticals, maybe wait until they actually happen before blaming them?
    Click to expand...
    Hence they are predictions for the future (aside from dark-mode only being current reality)
    Mental Gear Reduction said:
    And I have him on ignore too, but the dumb stuff he says to feed his irrational AMD hatred still manages to leak through a little, like it did here.
    Click to expand...
    Let's move on. All our exchange did was demonstrate that keeping him on ignore is the best policy.
     
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    Mental Gear Reduction

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  • #166
    grommit! said:
    Those who cannot remember the past etc etc.
    Click to expand...
    Oh, FFS, that was a problem two years ago, long since fixed. It was a temporary inconvenience, not a long-term problem. Are you just looking for things to get pissed off about?
    grommit! said:
    Hence they are predictions for the future (aside from dark-mode only being current reality)
    Click to expand...
    You're holding them responsible for doing imaginary things. This is not sane behavior.
     
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  • #167
    Mental Gear Reduction said:
    Oh, FFS, that was a problem two years ago, long since fixed. It was a temporary inconvenience, not a long-term problem. Are you just looking for things to get pissed off about?
    Click to expand...
    Here's the full quote:
    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Click to expand...
    In other words, this is predicting what will happen again as more bloat gets added to the app. Just as it did with Geforce Experience.
    Mental Gear Reduction said:
    You're holding them responsible for doing imaginary things. This is not sane behavior.
    Click to expand...
    Dark-mode only is already reality, just as it is with AMD. And as previously noted, we're talking about the future - hence predictions.
     
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  • #168
    grommit! said:
    In other words, this is predicting what will happen again as more bloat gets added to the app. Just as it did with Geforce Experience.
    Click to expand...
    Temporary problems that aren't serious problems.

    Again, you're just making shit up and getting mad about it. And who the fuck cares about dark mode? It's not like you're living in the app. You'll probably fire it up maybe once per game install, if that.
     
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  • #169
    grommit! said:
    This is pedantry and you know it. It also ignores that most people follow the defaults. Which in nvidia's case is to install the app as that's selected when you run the installer. And once the control panel gets stripped, people will have two choices:
    • Bare driver with no way of changing settings in the OS. Not so much of an issue for modern games, but a pain in the ass for older ones.
    • Install the bloatware, and have to deal with whatever stupidity it brings with it
    In other words, just like AMD.
    Click to expand...
    Aside from this issue, the new Nvidia app is actually really good. The UI actually makes sense (Unlike the Nvidia Control Panel and Geforce Experience, which both suck) and it runs well. You don't have to log-in either. The new overlay is a lot slicker than the old one too. I was dubious but it really is good.
     
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  • #170
    Mental Gear Reduction said:
    It's funny, now that his pet hobbyhorse Intel is failing so badly that even he can't defend it, that he's switched to championing NVidia instead. Anything to satisfy his AMD hate. He's so desperate to insist that AMD sucks that now he's gone heavy on graphic cards, since they're winning comprehensively on the CPU front.

    And I have him on ignore too, but the dumb stuff he says to feed his irrational AMD hatred still manages to leak through a little, like it did here.

    I realized that he was worthless to talk to when he was willing to quote arguments from sources he explicitly didn't trust. Anything to "win" and say AMD is bad.
    Click to expand...
    LOL! Still using my 10700K and 4790K and loving them. Still on track for an ArrowLake build next year. Face it, you don't have the first clue about me.
     
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  • #171
    Mental Gear Reduction said:
    Temporary problems that aren't serious problems.
    Click to expand...
    I suspect people who had to wait for nvidia's hotfix might disagree.
    Mental Gear Reduction said:
    Again, you're just making shit up and getting mad about it. And who the fuck cares about dark mode? It's not like you're living in the app. You'll probably fire it up maybe once per game install, if that.
    Click to expand...
    I'm not the one swearing and getting upset about someone else's predictions. I guess we can look forward to seeing your reaction when they come true 🙄

    Dark-mode is a problem to varying degrees for people with astigmatism. I got a headache from setting up a laptop that used AMD's Adrenalin, which is partly why I swore off them awhile back.
     
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  • #172
    Xavin said:
    Aside from this issue, the new Nvidia app is actually really good. The UI actually makes sense (Unlike the Nvidia Control Panel and Geforce Experience, which both suck) and it runs well. You don't have to log-in either. The new overlay is a lot slicker than the old one too. I was dubious but it really is good.
    Click to expand...
    That's good to hear - I've got a 2060 to drop into my media PC, and should probably update the kid's 3060 PC over the holidays so I'll try it out. GFE was always a pain with multi-user PCs (keeping everyone logged in was a PITA) and I honestly didn't think you could change anything in what was left of the control panel. Guess I just need to turn off the overlay.
     
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  • #173
    grommit! said:
    This is pedantry and you know it. It also ignores that most people follow the defaults. Which in nvidia's case is to install the app as that's selected when you run the installer. And once the control panel gets stripped, people will have two choices:
    • Bare driver with no way of changing settings in the OS. Not so much of an issue for modern games, but a pain in the ass for older ones.
    • Install the bloatware, and have to deal with whatever stupidity it brings with it
    In other words, just like AMD.
    Click to expand...

    It's not. Because actual driver problems, are not escapable, by merely changing an option.

    I play a lot of Fallout, and boards are full of AMD problems, that necessitate resorting to using DXVK, to avoid AMDs directX drivers to keep from crashing.

    Minor slow down (3% to 5% in most HWUB testing) that can be corrected with a simple setting change vs crash-fest that requires bypassing the drivers...

    It's not equivalent at all.
     
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  • #174
    grommit! said:
    I suspect people who had to wait for nvidia's hotfix might disagree.
    Click to expand...
    A minor annoyance at most.

    You just don't like change, and you're throwing up all this phantom bullshit to try to say that the change is bad.

    It may be, but holding NVidia responsible for things that have not happened yet, and pointing at minor problems from years ago, is far, far from convincing argumentation.

    So far, they have done a better job of managing complexity than anyone else in the GPU space has. They are so much better than AMD and Intel.

    Giving them the benefit of the doubt unless and until serious problems manifest seems only reasonable, given their history.
     
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  • #175
    grommit! said:
    Anyhow, cleaned off the stock paste and replaced it with a Thermal Grizzly Kryosheet (so I don't have to take apart the card again).

    After an hour of testing, hotspot temperature hasn't exceeded 73C (10C delta). Fans haven't had to go above 1200 RPM either. I'll post a follow-up in a few months if anything changes.
    Click to expand...
    Well, that didn't last long.

    I removed the Kryosheet in anticipation of an RMA. Doing so and keeping it intact is impossible, so don't plan on re-using one.

    Temperatures have been fine, but the card has been acting up recently and replacing the Kryosheet (it's conductive, unlike other TIM) is the last troubleshooting step before going the RMA route.
    Mental Gear Reduction said:
    You just don't like change, and you're throwing up all this phantom bullshit to try to say that the change is bad.
    Click to expand...
    There's a difference between being change averse, and recognizing when a specific change is bad. But given your comment history I can see where this is going, so 🚮
     
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  • #176
    Mental Gear Reduction said:
    I'm not sure how much longer it will still work, but the utility NVCleanstall will do a very nice minimum install of the NVidia drivers.
    Click to expand...
    Second your recommendation here. I've been using it for years. Before I discovered nvcleaninstall I would run autoruns after every single update to disable Nvidia's telemetry. Pain in the arse.

    Also, this is a pretty stupid problem for Nvidia. Their brand new app which was in beta for a year finally released to much fanfare... and made everybody's computer slower. Did they not think to test it? Couldn't they afford QA? It isn't the end of the world, but c'mon.
     
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  • #177
    Xavin said:
    Aside from this issue, the new Nvidia app is actually really good. The UI actually makes sense (Unlike the Nvidia Control Panel and Geforce Experience, which both suck) and it runs well. You don't have to log-in either. The new overlay is a lot slicker than the old one too. I was dubious but it really is good.
    Click to expand...
    Seconded, the only part I miss from GFE is the ability to toggle specific graphic options in the game optimization thingy, mostly because for some games it actually had "hidden" settings like registry keys or config file tweaks that you probably wouldn't know about unless you were into reading wikis about your game and whatnot.
    And stuff like RTX HDR is great, for Elden Ring it's just straight up better than the shitty HDR built into the game, and unlike the built in one it isn't buggy as all hell either.

    Acting like a slight performance regression that will more than likely be fixed and can be easily remedied in the meantime is some kind of huge issue and the harbinger of doom is just unhinged.
     
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  • #178
    rodalpho said:
    Also, this is a pretty stupid problem for Nvidia. Their brand new app which was in beta for a year finally released to much fanfare... and made everybody's computer slower. Did they not think to test it? Couldn't they afford QA? It isn't the end of the world, but c'mon.
    Click to expand...
    Yeah, that was a pretty stupid mistake. It's probably something they didn't think to test for, or didn't notice.

    One thing I'm pretty confident about: this failure mode will be added to their test suite, so once it's fixed, it shouldn't recur.

    Nobody gets it perfect every time, and NVidia's no exception. But, generally, they only make a specific QA mistake once, which I think is all we can reasonably ask for.
     
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  • #179
    Sunner said:
    Acting like a slight performance regression that will more than likely be fixed and can be easily remedied in the meantime is some kind of huge issue and the harbinger of doom is just unhinged.
    Click to expand...
    It's amusing how specific critiques on points you don't care about are described as "unhinged", while ignoring that being forcibly opted-in to anything (the seeming cause of this specific bug) is generally frowned upon on in the rest of our lives.

    I'm not alone in having been happy to pay nvidia a premium for their products over the years. That premium means they are held to a higher standard, not just for the hardware, but for the software that they force me to use. But hey, if you fellas are happy to accept the same standard from them as from AMD 🤷🏽‍♀️
     
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    Mental Gear Reduction

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  • #180
    grommit! said:
    But hey, if you fellas are happy to accept the same standard from them as from AMD 🤷🏽‍♀️
    Click to expand...
    Oh for chrissake you are overstating this ridiculously.

    There is a bug. You can work around the bug. The bug will go away soon. It will not come back.

    They didn't kill your newborn, okay? Comparing a single bug with AMD's driver stack is risible.
     
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  • #182
    NewNinetyNine said:
    My favorite bit of this was the HUB video praising the new Nvidia App followed by the HUB video clutching pearls over the same.

    It's a dumb mistake and I'm glad gaming YouTubers caught it. But geez these things are milked for engagement by acting as if the moon will fall on us.
    Click to expand...

    Welcome to the Internet. All outrage, no nuance. The algorithm demands engagement.
     
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  • #183
    grommit! said:
    But hey, if you fellas are happy to accept the same standard from them as from AMD 🤷🏽‍♀️
    Click to expand...
    With AMD I saw the same things happening over and over again: poor implementation of "parity" software features like FSR, poor scope of game adoption of features vs. DLSS and similar, instability in new releases, and unaddressed instability issues in certain games. Compare this to a one-time fix in a completely new app after X years with GFE?

    As an example, my 7900XTX randomly crashed in WoW classic (3.5 years old at the time of my GPU purchase), killing multiple hardcore characters. Apparently this bug was fixed two years later than that. For an ancient game that was one of the most popular ever made.

    Another example is numerous releases that crashed repeatedly on launch, sometimes requiring a month+ wait for an AMD driver fix. This includes "top tier" AAA releases like BG3. It all magically went away after dumping the 7900XTX for a 4080 Super.

    This honestly wouldn't bother me as much if online commentators didn't try and portray you as somewhere between delusional and mendacious if you criticize AMD's software. It's OK to say "well their software is a bit behind and unreliable, but you save money and get gobs of VRAM." Instead I'm told in various forums that my lived experiences are lying or user error, despite putting $1,000 of my own money on the line and watching AMD release patches specifically for these issues that "don't exist."
     
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  • #184
    whoisit said:
    Welcome to the Internet. All outrage, no nuance. The algorithm demands engagement.
    Click to expand...
    I don't even blame the YouTubers for this. Basically every channel I've followed has depended into hot takes and clickbait, because the algorithm is completely unforgiving of anyone who isn't generating massive engagement on a continuous basis, regardless of the flow of news.

    Algorithmic recommendations are a pox on reasonableness, in tech/gaming and elsewhere.
     
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  • #186
    NewNinetyNine said:
    With AMD I saw the same things happening over and over again: poor implementation of "parity" software features like FSR, poor scope of game adoption of features vs. DLSS and similar, instability in new releases, and unaddressed instability issues in certain games. Compare this to a one-time fix in a completely new app after X years with GFE?
    Click to expand...
    To be clear, I am talking about the user interface - i.e. GFE/nv app vs Adrenalin. i.e. nvidia are going down the same route as AMD did years ago - you either put up with their bloated app, or give up the ability to configure the drivers. And as already noted, the app is not "new" - it's been available for a year at this point.
    NewNinetyNine said:
    As an example, my 7900XTX randomly crashed in WoW classic (3.5 years old at the time of my GPU purchase), killing multiple hardcore characters. Apparently this bug was fixed two years later than that. For an ancient game that was one of the most popular ever made.

    Another example is numerous releases that crashed repeatedly on launch, sometimes requiring a month+ wait for an AMD driver fix. This includes "top tier" AAA releases like BG3. It all magically went away after dumping the 7900XTX for a 4080 Super.
    Click to expand...
    If we're throwing around anecdotes, I couldn't update my nvidia drivers for a year because doing so would completely bork Division 2. This when the game had been out for over a year, and had just had a popular expansion released.
    NewNinetyNine said:
    This honestly wouldn't bother me as much if online commentators didn't try and portray you as somewhere between delusional and mendacious if you criticize AMD's software. It's OK to say "well their software is a bit behind and unreliable, but you save money and get gobs of VRAM." Instead I'm told in various forums that my lived experiences are lying or user error, despite putting $1,000 of my own money on the line and watching AMD release patches specifically for these issues that "don't exist."
    Click to expand...
    Absolutely, and it's why I've also put our resident red team cheerleader on ignore. Both of these companies take in billions of revenue every quarter. I think it's reasonable to expect better of them in terms of basic QA.
     
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    Mental Gear Reduction

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  • #187
    NewNinetyNine said:
    Instead I'm told in various forums that my lived experiences are lying or user error, despite putting $1,000 of my own money on the line and watching AMD release patches specifically for these issues that "don't exist."
    Click to expand...
    FWIW, the Linux drivers have a very good reputation. I have no direct experience, so don't know if it's earned or if it's shill commentary, but I've been seeing extremely consistent good reviews there, to the point that most folks claiming experience with both seem to prefer the AMD stack under Linux.

    If Windows 11 LTSC didn't exist, I'd probably be trying a dual-GPU Linux host, with a low-end AMD card for the Linux side, and an NVidia card on passthrough for a Windows VM.
     
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  • #188
    Mental Gear Reduction said:
    One thing I'm pretty confident about: this failure mode will be added to their test suite, so once it's fixed, it shouldn't recur.

    Nobody gets it perfect every time, and NVidia's no exception. But, generally, they only make a specific QA mistake once, which I think is all we can reasonably ask for.
    Click to expand...
    Nvidia's drivers had problems properly downclocking when idle on the windows desktop several times over the past decade or so, particularly when multiple monitors were different resolutions, refresh rates, or DPI density. They kept having this problem, over and over, each iteration slightly different from the one before. Maybe this was a huge technical problem to outright fix (which they eventually did) but as an end-user, it felt like their QA kept missing it and users had to loudly complain in their forums for what felt like the same issue that kept recurring.

    As for testing, the "Game filters and Photo mode" is active by default unless the user opts-out and turns it off. The impact was an overall performance loss markedly higher than any error margin. It wasn't some exotic edge case. How the heck do you miss that?

    Like I said, only a couple percent and they'll certainly fix it quickly, not the end of the world. But also, totally not impressive.
     
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  • #189
    rodalpho said:
    Like I said, only a couple percent and they'll certainly fix it quickly, not the end of the world. But also, totally not impressive.
    Click to expand...
    Yeah, it makes them look very sloppy for missing it. Performance is kind of Job One for a graphic card, so them missing the loss of that much speed does not speak well of their current testing regime.

    The multiple-monitors thing didn't bite me personally, but I bet that was frustrating. It doesn't sound like it should be a snarly problem, but it's not like I write graphic drivers. :)
     
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  • #190
    Yep. Nvidia software has its problems too.

    Nvidia support is tough to beat. I have ShieldTVs, which were originally released in 2015, and Nvidia supports them to this day. Back in 2021 or 2022 I had a problem where the wifi kept disconnecting with Unifi APs and Nvidia hooked me up with the actual development team, submitting error dumps, until they eventually fixed the bug. It was extraordinary support.
     
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  • #191
    grommit! said:
    To be clear, I am talking about the user interface - i.e. GFE/nv app vs Adrenalin. i.e. nvidia are going down the same route as AMD did years ago - you either put up with their bloated app, or give up the ability to configure the drivers. And as already noted, the app is not "new" - it's been available for a year at this point.
    Click to expand...
    All of the nvidia stuff on my PC combined looks to be <200MB RAM and 0% passive CPU usage - I don't feel the bloat. To be honest I prefer things like AMD Adrenalin and GFE/Nvidia App to the old Nvidia control panel, due to a better UI and one unified place for all of the GPU "stuff."
    grommit! said:
    If we're throwing around anecdotes, I couldn't update my nvidia drivers for a year because doing so would completely bork Division 2. This when the game had been out for over a year, and had just had a popular expansion released.
    Click to expand...
    OK, but I'd argue that this stuff is way more common with the AMD stack. It's like having a colleague that misses a deliverable once in a blue moon and one that is late often and saying "well, they both missed at least one thing."

    This isn't me just getting in shots on AMD - I genuinely want them to be at parity to push Nvidia on value. It's just that my recent empirical experience is night and day. I find immense value in having things "just work," which is partly my OCD but more just a function of the limited free time of being an adult. In college or when I was single in my 20s I was happy to spend time tinkering with manually editing drivers and reddit workarounds, but now I just want to sit down and have the thing work.
    grommit! said:
    Absolutely, and it's why I've also put our resident red team cheerleader on ignore. Both of these companies take in billions of revenue every quarter. I think it's reasonable to expect better of them in terms of basic QA.
    Click to expand...
    My sinking suspicion is that gaming will get less and less of a focus as AI revenue gallops forward. We kind of see this with AMD already, who splits a smaller budget pie over CPUs/GPUs/APUs/etc. I don't see anyone putting their best devs and QA staff on gaming in 5 years. Hopefully new AI tools can help offset some of this reduced focus.
     
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  • #192
    rodalpho said:
    Yep. Nvidia software has its problems too.

    Nvidia support is tough to beat. I have ShieldTVs, which were originally released in 2015, and Nvidia supports them to this day. Back in 2021 or 2022 I had a problem where the wifi kept disconnecting with Unifi APs and Nvidia hooked me up with the actual development team, submitting error dumps, until they eventually fixed the bug. It was extraordinary support.
    Click to expand...
    You've got to love when a company steps up like that. When my original AM5 mobo refused to work with any 7900XTX GPU, I initially reached out to my GPU vendor (Sapphire?) who put me in touch with a dev. And I sheepishly had to respond that I replicated the issue with a different vendor and fixed with a mobo swap after he sent me a great email with next steps and data dump requests.

    So many firms just shrug away any issue that affects less than X% of the install base.
     
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  • #194
    rodalpho said:
    I took it as Nvidia having infinite resources so they could dedicate people to supporting a 7 year old $200 streamer box. But I was greatly appreciative of it! If they ever release a ShieldTV2 I'm buying two on the first day.
    Click to expand...
    Yeah I'm kind of annoyed that the shield-type boxes died and we have dongles on one end and mini PCs on the other, with DIY Raspberry stuff kind of filling the gap. Right now I pipe video over an HDMI cable to the living room TV but would prefer a nice streaming experience with local peripherals plugged into a box
     
    NewNinetyNine

    NewNinetyNine

    Wise, Aged Ars Veteran
    2,129
  • #196
    rodalpho said:
    Streamer boxes aren't particularly expensive, just pick up the walmart ONN box if you don't want to pay for a 10 year old shieldTV (and I don't blame you honestly, even though it's still the best). Much better than HDMI cables strewn everywhere.
    Click to expand...
    I'm looking to run an HDMI2 cable to the TV this year, though I run into issues with robust bluetooth reach to the PC. Hence the idea of a box that I can use with peripherals. Ideally over Ethernet to get good motion and IQ.
     
    NewNinetyNine

    NewNinetyNine

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  • #198
    rodalpho said:
    What do you mean by peripherals? Android can pair with pretty much anything. TVOS is pretty good too.

    If you're looking to run moonshine or similar for game streaming to your TV, androidTV does a great job. I use my xbox series X for that personally though.
    Click to expand...
    So right now I'm almost there via 8K active HDMI, which will be optimal if we get a 120Hz HDR TV someday. The sticking point is that the couch has some obstruction to the office, so bluetooth has been a bit wonky (or it could be our el cheapo controllers; trying an XBOX controller soon).

    One robust solution would be sunshine over Ethernet to some sort of box for high quality 4K/120Hz/HDR, with the living room peripherals being sent 10 unobstructed feet. But thinking about it if we add a "cable port" to the office I could probably just run a long USB cable over with some sort of bluetooth dongle on it for the controllers, mouse, and keyboard. Allowing that HDMI.

    Next step is finding a way to test the BT connection strength to my peripherals, which seems to be oddly difficult to track down.
     
    B

    BigLan

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    7,364
  • #200
    rodalpho said:
    You plug the androidTV box (or xbox or whatever) into ethernet, then you pair your keyboard, mouse, gamepad, etc, to that. It all works splendidly. You do really need ethernet for a good experience, though.
    Click to expand...
    Saw a recommendation for the Onn streaming box, just be aware that the latest version includes a network jack, but it's only 100mbit not gbit. Shouldn't really make a difference, but still a bit of a head scratcher. It's got a USB 3 port so you could use an external gbit (or faster) one if you felt like it.

    Otherwise, the Android boxes are solid and there are choices which aren't hamstrung with miserly ram and storage - capacity is at least as much as the Shield had years ago.
     
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